Chad Duval: You’re listening to Start fm, episode number eight. Hey guys, today’s guest is multifamily syndicator, Ben Leybovich. He is a immigrant from Russia who migrated to the US in his early teen years as a musician,  and loved to play the violin until one day, he actually could not feel his limbs, and ultimately was struck with an illness that robbed him of his capabilities to play the violin. That brought him to today. Basically long story short, it forced him to find an alternative income source to take care of his family, that didn’t require him to play his music, or for that fact, use his hands as much.  

So, today he syndicates multifamily hundred-plus apartment buildings. For people who don’t know what the word syndicate means, it means basically pooling a bunch of money from friends, family, I guess there is ways to do it with Strangers as well, and then going out and buying large apartment communities. So, and today, I really want to bring as much value to you guys and try to… I’m on a personal mission to find different ways to structure the show, that brings out the most actionable items. I mean in this interview and chat with Ben, it actually is a good interview to… and it’s structured in the way where I can pause it, interject some thoughts and some perspective and hopefully, it brings a little bit more value to you guys. So, with that being said, we will jump right into the show. 

Speaker 3: This is Start fm.

Speaker 4: Now, here’s your host, active real estate investor and entrepreneur, Chad Duval.

Chad Duval: Hey guys, a big shout out to Buildium. It’s the web-based property management software that balances, power, simplicity and ease of use. Take this opportunity to get 15 days free, and I checked, you don’t even have to enter credit card, and it takes less than 30 seconds to create an account. To sign up, go to Again, that’s to get 15 days of free help collecting your rent, advertising your vacant units, and just making your life as a landlord so much easier. Sweet, right?

All right, we have Ben Leybovich here. How’re you doing Ben?

Ben Leybovich: I am very well, thank you. How are you? 

Chad Duval: Good.

Ben Leybovich: Thank you for having me on. 

Chad Duval: Yeah, no problem. So I like to just dive right in and get a little bit of your story. You have quite the story, of how you got into real estate and I think it’s a super valuable lessons that we can dig into and bring value to the audience. So, with that, I’ll let you introduce yourself.

Ben Leybovich: Well, my name is Ben and I was… Jeez, it’s been such a long time since somebody asked me about my story, because it seems like it’s everywhere, right? By this point. But I’ll keep it really short. So I’m a violinist, a classically trained violinist. And I discovered that I had a medical condition in the first year of master degree. And that medical condition, is a neurological condition, which made it so that it probably wouldn’t have been the wisest thing to continue performing fine motor skills, such as playing a violin. And so, that caused me to consider my options, understand a little bit more, the world of money, to the best of my ability.

My current self disagrees with almost everything myself 15 years ago thought knew everything, and turns out knew nothing. But that’s beside the point because we have to start somewhere. But real estate ended up being the most logical thing for me to do. That’s how I got pushed into real estate. It was not really by desire. It was by necessity.

Chad Duval: I see. You started back many years ago. Where are you now? What does your current portfolio look like now? To bring some context as how far you’ve come, when you’re saying 15 years of mindset shifts and it seems like a lot of things have changed in the 15 years. So I’m curious on where you’re at right now.

Ben Leybovich: Well, I syndicate apartment complexes now. I’m in Phoenix and I buy a hundred-units-plus kind of not too big, not too small, kind of mid-size apartment buildings. 

Chad Duval: Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s interesting. I’m trying to get into that myself. You know, as everybody knows, I only had like 26 units, and I’m realizing every time you buy a property, that you’ve run out of money. So, syndication seems to be the next step going forward. But your syndicating deals… you had a very interesting start into real estate. Let’s pivot into like your first syndication deal, because I feel like that’s… Is that a relatively new part and pivot in your business or have you been doing that for a long time? 

Ben Leybovich: Syndication, I’ve been studying for about four years. I didn’t start doing it, until about a year and a half ago, but I was studying it for a long time. Uh-

Chad Duval: I see. Okay. 

Ben Leybovich: But, again I want to add value to your audience. I think that if I were to state a blanket statement, that is universally applicable to whether we’re talking about world of syndication or we’re talking about doing smaller deals, there are some universal truths. One of them is that you have to figure out a way to deliver value to somebody else, alongside delivering value to yourself. In fact, delivering value to somebody else ends up being… That perspective ends up leading you to figuring out how to deliver value to yourself. That’s one point.

Chad Duval: So guys, the way that I’m interpreting Ben is that instead of looking at how to get into real estate and trying to learn all the tactics right away, maybe the better use of time is to try and figure out how you as a person can bring value to the industry. Some examples of that is like if you work in sales. Maybe you would be good at wholesaling or you’d be good as a realtor, because most of that stuff is sales skills. Or if you’re handy or have carpentry skills, maybe you could try a whack at, no pun intended, at fix-and-flip or the BRRRR method, which is, you buy, rehab, rent, refinance and repeat. 

And even if you don’t have any tangible skills that you can think of, even a skill would be time. You have time. I know that was one of the things that I had, when I first started and got into my first property. I had time after my nine-to-five and the drive to go ahead and work at it. I also had about 10 years worth of experience working in the trade, so I was handy and was able to put my handy skills and my time together to do a BRRRR. But yeah, there’s a good way to… a good perspective to kind of look at it from looking for ways to bring value to the whole industry, figuring out what you’re good at and then going after those, instead of actually trying to just look at the industry and not knowing where to start.

Ben Leybovich: Another point is OPM, other people’s money. You alluded to it very quickly at the beginning of the call the saying, hey, if every time I buy a deal, I run out of money. And clearly you are cursed with the disease of having some money, because if you didn’t have any money, then you wouldn’t have this problem. I had a medical condition, but that wasn’t it. I didn’t have any money. So the idea of using other people’s money from day one, was on the agenda. So in part, this is probably what facilitated eventually, my transition into syndication, because, yes it looks different, yes the mechanics are different, but conceptually, you’re using other people’s money, whether you’re doing a six-unit building for a couple hundred thousand dollars or you are doing a 94-unit community for 11 million. 

Chad Duval: Right, right.

Ben Leybovich: It’s just the numbers get bigger, there’s more zeros attached. The techniques get a little different. The mechanics, I should say, get a little different. But the perspective on this thing is just… I came from that school of thought. Other people’s money was how I was going to be able to acquire and leverage.

Chad Duval: So you guys there are a few tangible OPM strategies that I’ve used over the past couple of years. The first one was the nine-unit apartment building that I bought was actually seller-financing. And the way that I found that was literally, it was so simple. All I was doing is on the MLS,, Craigslist. I can’t remember if I came across it on Craigslist or, but on all those sites, you can actually go into the search criteria and there’s key terms that you can actually search. So if you just type in owner-financing or seller-financing and search within the area that you’re looking, it’ll pull up every listing that has that listed in the description. So, it’s a good way to find seller-financing deals, which would be considered OPM. 

Another one was, the most recent transaction for the 15-unit, I came up short with the refinance, so I didn’t have enough money for the down payment. They needed a little extra and I was able to, once the property was under contract, negotiate with the sellers to carry back a second mortgage on it and just pay them over a period of 18 months. 

And actually the third OPM that I used was actually utilizing LendingClub, which, they have extremely high interest rates, but if it gets you into a deal and it’s a deal that has enough meat on the bone where you know, you can get in, do the work, get the income up and increase the value. It depends on what type of property is. If it’s commercial, get the NOI up. If it’s a single family home, do the appropriate updates and reify and get it rented, so that its worth more. Have it refinance. You can refinance out that LendingClub technically second loan on the property and be at a much better rate.So those are three strategies that you could utilize to use OPM. 

Now when you started, you know, you’re using other people’s money, how did you start that process? I know you said you started small, but where were your first people that you reached out to, to actually get the other people’s money? Was it the classic friends and family? Was it a business mentor, that sort of thing? 

Ben Leybovich: Yeah, it was all of the above. It was friends and family. It was mentors. I’ve been blessed to have people along the way, and it’s interesting because it grows. That process grows alongside with you. So your mentors kind of materialize at every level, you kind of work and operate and think. So eventually you outgrow this mentor and you start looking for answers and you start talking to people. In the process of talking to people, you come across somebody that says something that makes a lot of sense to you. And there you go. All of a sudden you have a mentor. Maybe they don’t even know it. Maybe you don’t even have a prescribed relationship. Just from looking and seeing and hearing what’s going on. Something clicks, you know?

Chad Duval: Right. Yeah. I mean that’s so funny too because that term mentor gets thrown around so much these days and it’s so funny because a mentor can come in all sorts of different ways. Like a mentor can come in a way where you have somebody in your network that you feel comfortable just emailing them with one question every now and then. And that could be considered your mentor. It’s not this… I think a lot of people have the mentality that a business mentor is actually like somebody you’re paying on payroll and they’re, at your Beck and call 24/7. 

Ben Leybovich: Well and it can be. It can be on a lot of the high profile CEOs have mentors that are paid mentors and nothing wrong with that. I am not at all anti-guru. I have courses, I charge money for consulting, you know all of those things. I don’t see anything wrong with that. The thing is we all paid in one way or the other to have the knowledge we have.

Chad Duval: Right.

Ben Leybovich: The notion that you’re going to expect to receive this knowledge absolutely for free without any kind of exchange of values is not correct. I disagree with that. I’ve been very vocal in bigger pockets and elsewhere that I disagree. I’m good friends with Josh, I’m great friends with Brandon. I know the guys that are the BiggerPockets and I’ve disagreed with them from day one.I think you get what you pay for. And I think you deliver value if you want to, because you are getting some other value than monetary. But if it’s monetary value that it takes to consummate the transaction, then be it. There’s nothing wrong with it. The point being, there has to be a fair exchange of value in order for everybody to be happy and satisfied.

Now in the beginning, and this is what the tricky part is, you have to understand that the people that are going to deliver value to you, they will expect a financial gain. Of Course they will. It would be unreasonable for them not to. But equally if not more importantly, they will do things for you because they like you. Because they want to have you succeed. They want to take part of that process and help facilitate you. Maybe because they’ve gotten from point A to point B. Maybe because whatever, whatever. Maybe it’s time for them to retire and they want to see a youngin kind of pick it up and take it someplace. But the thing of it is that value comes in many shapes and sizes. And where we get in trouble, is that we get very hardened and very square, and put those glasses on that allow us to see one thing. And then you miss the forest for the trees. 

In the beginning, what you are ultimately looking for, is yes you want to deliver value to those people. But those people won’t go along with you because you have no track record. You have nothing. They won’t go along with you unless they like you, they respect you, they want to have you succeed, and even if you fail and they lose some money with you, they will be okay because they get other kind of value out of doing what they did for you and with you. This is what you need to understand. Well, in that environment, who do you go to outside of the people who like you, trust you and respect you? Who are those people? The list is pretty short.

Chad Duval: Right, exactly.

Ben Leybovich: At the end of the day.

Chad Duval: Yeah. So you’re almost basically saying that at the beginning there’s two extremes.There’s you can go full blown pay, a business coach, or you’re going for friends and family that actually believe in you, you have a relationship with and want to see succeed no matter how much… even if you-

Ben Leybovich: Yeah. Maybe you’re even mixing two separate things. I mean one thing has to do with private lending. Another thing has to do with education. I don’t know that you should necessarily pay. I’m not going to teach anybody right now, unless they pay me $10,000. Right now I’m sitting in an office that Tesla provided me because they’re working on my car, and I’m here, and I can take the time to do this interview. But, I have two kids and as soon as I leave here, I’m going to go to downtown Phoenix, go to the theater to pick up a packet for my 10 year old daughter who just won a role in the Phoenix theater production of Sound of Music. That’s the important stuff in my life.

I’m talking to you and I like you and everything, but you mean absolutely nothing to me. I am talking to you because I’ve got a minute of sitting here and I knew I scheduled it this way. I knew I’d be waiting for my car. I figured I might as well do some use to somebody. And there we are, right? But I’m being very blunt about it clearly, and kind of very sarcastic. Hopefully you can see through that. 

Chad Duval: Of course.

Ben Leybovich: But that said, if it was a question… it was a drive to get something to pick up for daughter or talking to you sitting down and talking, forget it. You’re not getting this with me. [crosstalk 00:17:58] And as for me…

Chad Duval: Right. And that’s why you charge.

Ben Leybovich: That’s exactly it because there has to be an even exchange of value. Are you going to underwrite better than me? No. Are you going to find a deal before I will? No. Are you going to manage it? No. What exactly is the val… If you want to learn from me, what exactly is the value that you’re offering to me?

Chad Duval: Right, right.

Ben Leybovich: Right? And if you have something, great, let’s talk about it. But if you don’t, and you still want to learn, I think you’re silly to think I’m going to teach you for free, how to do stuff that can make you $300,000 in the next six months. I mean it’s just silly how people get sometimes about this stuff. Right?

Chad Duval: Right, right. Exactly. Well, so as we were talking earlier, the audience is primarily people that are trying to get into the sport per se. And you do have an ebook out and it’s, 20 Ways to Buy an Investment Property with $2,000 or Less. Are there any strategies in that, that you are willing to elaborate on a little bit here on the show and kind of give a few of those ways?

Ben Leybovich: I couldn’t tell you right now, a single thing about a book I wrote about 10 years ago.

Chad Duval: Oh, it’s that old?

Ben Leybovich: And it is amazing that people still download this stuff… and, and clearly it’s still works. I mean I’m not telling you that it doesn’t work, so I don’t pay attention to it. I’m just telling you that my perspective on life… Now at this point, I’ve understood it. I’ve internalized it and I specifically put it in motion. But before, I was still doing the same thing, I just didn’t realize what I was doing. And what I was doing really, is adopting this perspective on life that says, hey, if I figured something out, I’m sure that other people are looking for a solution to the same or similar problem. And if I’ve succeeded in solving this problem, why don’t I put something out there that helps shorten people’s learning curve. And if I failed, why don’t I put something out there, that tells people why it failed, right? 

So all of this stuff, the CFFU that I sell at my website for a couple a hundred dollars this course, the syndication that I teach for $10,000, a mountian of free content. All of it, is me going through life entrepreneurially and saying I did this thing because I was looking for a solution to a specific problem. I’m sure I’m not the only one. And if I’m not the only one, then let me just put it out there and maybe people find it helpful. 

So, I am not going to tell you that I remember word to word every piece of everything that I’ve ever put out there. I absolutely don’t. I don’t care to. Right? But that’s how that book came about. 20 Ways to Buy a Property, because at some point, I was doing that and I was researching it and I was thinking it, and I was showering it and eating it and sleeping it and obsessing over it. And then, at some point I figured, put it out there, might be helpful to somebody and it still is I think, but I don’t remember a thing about it because I haven’t done anything to do with that in a decade.

Chad Duval: I know, isn’t that crazy how you can go, 10 years and the mind shift… I know just for me in the six years that I’ve been in real estate from day one to now, the shift is completely different. I don’t think anywhere the same, as I did when I first started. 

Ben Leybovich: Well it’d be really sad if you did.

Chad Duval: Right. Right. Exactly. Well, I did have another question. So I don’t remember what show you were on or what podcast you were on, but it might have been BiggerPockets or something like that and you mentioned something and you said something that has always kind of stuck with me and it was basically you don’t really like real estate itself, but you like what it does for you. And I’m curious, that was a while ago and I’m wondering if that’s still kind of the case, as we’re talking our mindsets and the way that you’ve evolved over the last[crosstalk 00:22:26] years.

Ben Leybovich: It is. To be totally honest with you, I don’t understand people who enjoy real estate. There is nothing enjoyable about it. Specifically when you start using other people’s money, because the responsibility is so profound that… The fiduciary responsibility… There’s not anything about it, that you can take lightly or conceive of as a game of any sort. Yet it is a game. So, there’s a very strange dynamic that exists around real estate. I don’t like it. I’ve never liked it. It’s always been a solution to a problem. The problem has changed and morphed over the years. The solution, the way that it works, uh, the way it implements has changed and morphed over the years. But at some point you’re interested in some cashflow at other points you’re interested in equity, you do different things to accommodate different demands of your life and such and such. But I would rather play violin.

Chad Duval: Right, right.

Ben Leybovich: And I can’t money doing it and I’m not going to be a member of a nonprofit sector where I have to stand up and ask a rich guy for money for a donation and unless the workers forgets that donation, I don’t get paid. 

Chad Duval: Right. 

Ben Leybovich: I’m not comfortable with that deck. The way the deck I stacked, economically speaking. But as far as would I rather be an elevated artist or be doing real estate I mean it’s, it’s no contest. 

Chad Duval: Right, right. But it’s nice that you have the real estate, that you’ve kind of got under control and is able to allow you to do that, and I think that’s ultimately that a lot of the goal for a lot of people with real estate. I think you’re right. I don’t really know that many people that actually really, really enjoy the nitty gritty of real estate. But yeah, it’s more of the, the philosophy behind it to allow you to do other things that you’re more passionate about. I think it’s admirable. Are you still highly involved in music?

Ben Leybovich: No, I’m not. I’m not involved in music and frankly real estate is my full time job. It’s interesting you were talking about the paradigm shifts throughout your career and as you learn more things. Syndication, is a full time job. I built a portfolio, I retired with that portfolio. I went for a couple of years and I made money online and I taught people and made money teaching people. My own personal growth and my highest and best use turned out to be real estate. Well, the way forward, was syndication. But syndication, you don’t go out and buy $50 million of property and not gain a job. It is a job. It’s a really well paying job, but it is very much a job.

And so I’ve come a full circle from hey, I have this medical condition that may prevent me from working, so I need to get some passive income going so let’s buy some real estate. I came from that place to figuring out, hey, buying passive income doesn’t really work so good. I need to find better solutions. Other solutions, better solutions. And I ended up in syndication. What’s going to be the paradigm shift another 10 years from now? I have no idea.

Chad Duval: Right, no, I’m curious. You’re going to go back to more of the passive route once you’ve been doing syndication for 10 years you know [inaudible 00:26:20].

Ben Leybovich: yeah. And I’m sure I am. I’m sure I am but it’s going to be at some point you have to be done. I mean eventually everybody has a number and you have kids and you want to do some charity work and X Y Z, but ultimately everybody has a number. At this point, and I alluded to this a minute ago, It is a game. At a certain point it does become a game. Money is just a measurement of how smart we are. How well we’re doing. But that’s it. I would not buy another building because I need more money. It’s always the challenge. It’s always the growth. The personal growth. And maybe that ties in with why I don’t like real estate.

I mean, we live our lives to grow because if you don’t grow your show shrivel up and die. Well, it just so happens that my highest and best use is in real estate and that’s the sphere and dimension within which I grow. Am I a little bitter that I’m not in nother dimension? I don’t know. Maybe I am. Maybe that’s part of the reason I can never get excited about real estate in and of itself. The thing that excites me is growth. It’s growth and figuring out challenges and solutions and that’s it. 

Chad Duval: Right, right. [inaudible 00:28:07]and I think that anybody who’s successful in real estate, I think that’s a very common trait. You get comfortable one area of it or you get comfortable in certain areas of your life and then you’re always searching for that uncomfortability and growing and learning new tasks. I know for myself, that’s why I started this podcast because everything kind of became automatic a little bit, just looking for growth and challenges and that sort of thing. I think that’s pretty common for sure, at least from what I see. But, what do you think is the number one excuse that you’ve seen, because you’ve been in this for a while that people don’t get into real estate?  What do you think is the main thing that usually holds them back? 

Ben Leybovich: Well, first of all, I don’t think it’s the right thing to do for most people. Like I’m coming on are a budding young real estate investor’s podcast and I’m going to tell for most people, it’s the dumbest freaking idea. Don’t do it. I’ll just just put it out there.

Chad Duval: And why is that? I tend to agree with you but I’m just curious what your answer is.

Ben Leybovich: Well, let me answer to you this way. The amount of resilience that it took in order to eat the piles of crap along the way, was manifested due to a very expressed need. It wasn’t a desire. I’m going back. It wasn’t a desire. I’m not going to quit my job at the bank because I hate it. I’m Not going to be an engineer anymore, because I hate it. I’m not going to be a musician anymore because I… I mean, I understand this thinking, I do, I understand it. It just wasn’t my experience. 

So in order to be somewhat, and I don’t pretend to be totally politically correct and don’t really care to, but in order to be somewhat politically correct, I’ll just focus on my perspective and say that I have no idea, if it was just all kind of lofty desire, that was the impetus behind the whole thing, that I would have stuck it out. I don’t think I would have. For me it was a need. My back was to the wall and I had to find solutions and so there I was. So I’m not an ideal person to answer that question because I don’t know what it’s like to be you. I know what it’s like to be a guy that’s told he has a medical condition, which is going to prevent him from being able to keep a job or move or have to be in a wheelchair. The doctors can’t tell you when or how soon. But here you go. Figure it out and don’t do anything stupid. 

Chad Duval: I mean that’s a pretty big why.

Ben Leybovich: Well but this is what I’m saying. I mean, I don’t want to be so cliche as to tell you, you need a why. But everybody has a why. But this is why I tell you all like my partner Sam, he was a really successful SCC reporting CPA. Worked for a big five. Worked for a $5 billion company in town and left that ladder. Quit climbing it and went into real estate. He didn’t have a need. He had a desire. Now I will tell you that he is a special person. There’s few people like him in terms of his capacity and abilities, but-

Chad Duval: And he and he genuinely likes real estate?

Ben Leybovich: I don’t even know if he does. I know he loves me, but I think, I think he does. But I think he also do… I don’t know, you would have to ask him.

Chad Duval: Yeah.

Ben Leybovich: But, I think you liked it more than I do, but that’s just because I’ve been really beat up. I mean, it’s like when start. I started before there was BiggerPockets. When I started, we had to actually learn on the mistakes, you know? 

Chad Duval: Right, yeah. 

Ben Leybovich: There didn’t seem to be any clear short cuts. So, with that being said, I always say, I respect people who leave these high-powered careers and go into real estate, because they have something to lose. I had nothing to lose.

Chad Duval: Right.

Ben Leybovich: I wasn’t leaving anything of value behind. So I actually had an easy decision. Like everybody keeps saying, Oh, you had this MS diagnosis, this and that and the other. So what? It crystallized my thinking. It made it easy for me. Now, if I was making good six figures and I was just at the beginning of my career and I could be a CFO at a publicly traded this or that, the other, that would be a hard decision to make, to leave. I mean clearly we make a lot more money than he could ever make, so he made the right decision. 

Chad Duval: Right, right, right. 

Ben Leybovich: But-

Chad Duval: I mean it’s just interesting because like you’re saying, I mean the 15 years that you’ve had a major paradigm shift and mental shifts and I think a lot of people find that even in the corporate jobs too. I mean for me that’s what kind of happened. I worked in corporate for eight, nine, 10 years and found out that it’s not what I wanted to do everyday. So you kind of start searching for that type of stuff and look for an alternative way. 

But, you’re right, I’m so new to this still six years in and the amount of stuff, you’re right, that you have to stomach on a daily basis and actually enjoy it enough to keep going is a significant key piece to real estate. And I kind of tend to agree with you. I don’t think a lot of people actually have that. They think it’s oh, nice to have, and they like the lifestyle that… anything can be sold online these days like the lives of the rich and famous and all these real estate investors. But I really don’t think it is like that only for a few small percentage of people that it’s actually like that. So…

Ben Leybovich: Yeah, and it’s never like that. Listen, you can have a nice life. I have a nice life. I make no qualms about it. But that’s because of the baggage. Right? It’s because of having gone through this and knowing what `I know, that I’m able to maneuver at this level.  But to go through that, I can’t-

Chad Duval: It’s tough.

Ben Leybovich: I can’t tell you that it’s the right thing to do for most people. 

Chad Duval: Right. Well, so I think there’s a lot of parallels between that and like exercising and stuff like that because I know… I’ve always struggled with my weight. I kind of blow up and then I come down and I get really lean and every couple of years I would kind of go through these cycles and I’ve kind of been in a really good cycle now for the last three years and I’m realizing there’s a lot of parallels to that and the way that I’ve been growing my real estate.

Because by me going through this, fitness journey, the last three years and really staying on point, I’ve built up the confidence to know that you can handle the cheat days or you can handle and navigate through certain situations. So you have more confidence and you can stomach things a little bit easier. And I think there’s the same thing with real estate where the more you stomach things, and the longer you’re in it, the easier it is to navigate and the more you’ll realize that, you can create a good life for yourself.But when you’re first starting out, I think it’s significantly hard to see that, because everything you see is basically a big punch to the face. So-

Ben Leybovich: Yeah, yeah-

Chad Duval: I don’t know, I just kind of finally said that because I’d been thinking about that a lot lately that I’m not afraid to cheat here and there on my diet because I know that I can get back to it and I’ve been doing it long enough and I think it’s the same thing real estate. You can fail here. You can have a little, mishap over here, but you’re still going to keep going through it because you’ve got the momentum for you. But yeah, I mean, other than that, I appreciate you being on the show today. I know you’re getting your Tesla worked on and I’m super jealous that you drive a Tesla. That’s on the bucket list one of these days. But yeah, would that be-

Ben Leybovich: It’s a fun car. 

Chad Duval: I’ve heard they’re super snappy, like they’re-

Ben Leybovich: Very Snappy.

Chad Duval: Yeah. Yeah. But-

Ben Leybovich: But refined. Snappy but refined.

Chad Duval: Yes. Which model do you have? 

Ben Leybovich: S

Chad Duval: Oh nice. I like those. I like them. Yeah. There’s somebody in my building that has one of them, drooling every time I see it. But yeah, with that being said, I guess if you want to just let everybody know where they can reach you. If they don’t know where you are, who you are. I’m sure a lot of people know who you are because like you said,  you’re plastered all over the internet. But yeah, how can people get in touch with you? 

Ben Leybovich: That’s the funniest way anybody’s ever described me. I’m plastered all over the internet. This is good. I hadn’t realized. [email protected]. is my website and that’s the best probably email for me. BiggerPockets. You can still reach me on BiggerPockets. I’m there a loot less but I’m still there. Yeah.

Chad Duval: Perfect. Perfect. Well thanks again. This is Ben Leybovich and I appreciate you being on the call today.

Ben Leybovich: It’s my pleasure. Hopefully your listeners can get a little bit of value out of this chat that-

Chad Duval: Absolutely.

Ben Leybovich: I apologize for not… I’m not the loudest voice promoting real estate because I’ve seen the ugly side of real estate and I know that A, it’s not for everybody and B, the saying, I can’t remember who said it, but it’s really applicable, don’t worry about the traits of the game… what is it? Tricks. Don’t worry about the tricks of the craft, just learn the craft.

Chad Duval: Right.

Ben Leybovich: Learn the trade.

Chad Duval: Yeah, no. I think you brought a very real and honest perspective to real estate and I think a lot of people don’t talk about the truths that much. That’s your truth. And I think that’s very valuable for some people to see that and know that it isn’t… I mean it’s not even… I guess we live in this weird world where you can’t be politically uncorrect and all that stuff, but I don’t think it’s really politically correct to actually talk about the real stuff sometimes. And I think you, you did a good job about that because-

Ben Leybovich: Well yeah, because on the one hand you’re being politically correct, on the other hand in order to do so, you are not being true to yourself. 

Chad Duval: A hundred percent.

Ben Leybovich: I’m not willing to be politically correct if what it means is lying. 

Chad Duval: Right. Exactly. And I hope people realize that in this episode, because it’s just about a really good honest approach to real estate because yeah, a lot of people don’t talk about all the shit that you have to deal with every day. You know,

Ben Leybovich: THat’s right. You said it I didn’t. I behaved myself very well on this call. I didn’t swear at all. There were no F bombs dropped at all, which is-

Chad Duval: I appreciate it. They’re allowed, but I appreciate it.

Ben Leybovich: It’s new territory for me, I’ll tell you. I’m trying to work it, but talking to newbies is just like F bombs all over the place. But yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I’ll leave you with probably, the last kind of universal thought that is probably true in my mind. Real estate works. It really does work. It requires a very uncommon amount of knowledge base. And in order to facilitate that knowledge base, a lot of it is going to have to come through trial and error and in order to go through that process, you’re going to have to, have a very uncommon amount of commitment to seeing things through. So when I say it’s possibly not for most people, it’s just what I mean. That amount of commitment is likely not common out there. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that real estate does work.It’s not sexy. It’s not attractive. It’s not glamorous, but it is capable of answering the call of duty, more so than just about any other investment or business opportunity. It certainly does work. It’s just be prepared for a very hard hitting full contact game. 

Chad Duval: Exactly. So there’s a little glimmer of hope for everybody. I guess we’ll leave with that and again, Ben I appreciate being on the show. 

Ben Leybovich: My pleasure, Chad, talk soon.

Chad Duval: Well guys, there you have it. That is Ben Leybovich. I hope you enjoyed his sometimes blunt, but realistic perspective on real estate. If you guys want to continue the discussion about OPM and other ways to bring value to the real estate industry, shoot me a DM over on Instagram. My handle is at @iamchadduval. I hope you enjoyed this episode and we will chat next week. Remember, you don’t have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great.